Katya has a love of teaching and has been able to continue this passion through her coaching career and with others who are creating small businesses.
Katya experience of anxiety and burnout has helped her to identify the simple ways that she can care for herself while also caring for others.
Katya joins us for Episode 22 of the Authentic Tea podcast to share her story behind The Working Well Doctor and how she is supporting people who care to thrive well in life and find their own path.
It's a pleasure to be joined in this episode by Katya. Katya is the founder of the Working Well Doctor and is passionate about helping others to thrive well, during tough times, Katya is supporting caring professionals with children to thrive in life and work with wellbeing training career and teaching coaching, combining her personal and professional experience. Katya offers, career development and client-based business mentorship program. Welcome Katya.
Hiya, Thanks so much for having me.
It's really fab to have you here today. And I just wonder if we could start off, if you could just share a little bit about the Working Well Doctor, when and how it was created and what you're sharing through your platform.
Yeah. So I was thinking a little bit about this before coming on. Yeah, so I started Working Well Doctor mainly because I, myself had struggled with anxiety and I didn't really notice or name it or address it or anything for such a long time. It turned into burnout, which is quite rubbish. It was very debilitating. It took quite a bit of work to get recovered from that. And part of the problem I realized was that I there's still a stigma around mental health for everybody, but I do think in caring professions, we're so busy caring for others. We often forget to care for ourselves, or we don't feel there's time or we feel guilty or there's lots of reasons. And I think there weren't many conversations that I was aware of where people in health care and doctors was talking about their own personal problems.
I think when you're a parent, you're both, you both can get turned upside down. And obviously again, you've got many hats, different caring roles, all of which are amazing, but I think those can all contribute. And in my case, they did contribute to me, just really not noticing how much anxiety was affecting me. And all those factors are actually kind of preventable or at least you can mitigate or minimize if you have a lot more self-awareness. And I really wanted to start those conversations. I wanted to share my story so that other people might avoid the mistakes I made really, because you can't really be what you can't see. We were talking about this earlier, but I think role models are important. And at the time I was unwell with anxiety and burnout. I didn't know of many other doctors who were talking about this and it just felt a big barrier.
And I think I probably would have got better sooner if I had known about the things that I now know or seen people talking in the way we are now talking. So that was a large part of the passion and that still drives me now. And I also love to teach. I've always taught throughout my whole life. And I obviously, as an occupational health doctor and GP, I know a fair bit about wellbeing and I know even more now, cause I've obviously I've developed my expertise in that area. And I received some coaching during my journey and that was great and I really love it. So now I deliver coaching for others, which I think is really helpful part of the tools you can get to develop yourself and get through any challenging patches. And I think what is working really most successfully at the moment is sort of doing programs two month programs where I do a a mixture of training and coaching for people with either career issues people with teamwork, especially teams in the pandemic, some of them are struggling understandably.
And also there's quite a few doctors as we know, or the healthcare professionals who are thinking of alternative ways to live and work since the pandemic some people are thinking of more of a portfolio career or leaving medicine entirely. And there isn't much guidance out there about how to run or start a business for doctors. So I'm doing mentorship to help doctors starting new businesses. Because again, same thing when I started my business, there was nobody out there telling me what to do. So I went and learned it all myself and it was great and fun and interesting, but it would have been nice if there'd been somebody for a bit of a pointer. So those are the three things I do when I do a small business mentorship, I do wellbeing training and I do career and team coaching. And the programs I deliver kind of have a combination of those three factors. It's great. It's really rewarding to help others. Hopefully it's helping it keeps me out of trouble
And it sounds wonderful that you've found those different elements that you've obviously enjoyed for a long time. And do you think that your background, so being a GP and an occupational health doctor, did they lead you into the coaching or can you see now that you were doing some of that actually as part of those roles?
It's a really good question, isn't it? So I think the surface answer is no, I was a doctor and then I had some coaching and then it was like, Oh, was great. Let me learn more about coaching. But as I've learned more about coaching, I realized that there are big overlap in skills, especially, you know, the part of clinical practice where you listen at the beginning of the history in particular, when you have open questions, that's a really key skill for coaching, which is about having a safe space. And those features for being a doctor where you create a confidential, safe space, you try not to be judgmental. I think those themes do overlap into coaching, which is lovely. The massive difference in coaching, or at least my style of coaching is that at least for the bulk of it, at the large part, you try not to be directive, which is where it diverges completely from medicine.
So you have to really try not to give advice, to try not to tell people what to do, because coaching is about drawing out their own inner resources and their own answers. And especially with stuff like a career, I can't really tell you what you want. It really has to be what works for you. And we talked about this before the podcast didn't we, and I think if you're going to sustain something, especially through the challenges, it needs to be something that you really love and you need to draw that from yourself and coaching can help you do that. So that's why I love coaching because it is really about supporting the other to find their own resources without telling them, I think medicine is very often about telling and directing. So yeah, that's the thing I love most about coaching.
You touched a little bit about your own experience of coaching. So is that something that you've continued? Do you have a coach yourself and have you had coaches at points where you've needed some sort of guidance and facilitation to move forward?
I had a coach when I was in the trickier parts of my journey and that was really helpful. And now it's interesting thing about coaching is I try and do sort of some co coaching as part of my coaching practice. So we had supervision, which is important, then you do actual coaching for your clients. And then we try and do some coaching in groups of other groups of other coaches, where we coach each other and we observe each other. So it's partly continuous professional development you know, and you're learning, supporting, sharing with each other. So you can continue to improve your practice, but by doing that, you take it in turns to be the coach and to be the coachee which is a new word that I've recently learned the person in receipt of coaching. And that means you do get your own coaching along the way from fellow coaches. And that's actually quite, quite good as well. So I think it's helpful to keep your hand in both as the coach and the recipient of the coach, coachee
And sharing some of that, like you've just said, so sharing it with your peers, a lot of that is about sort of the collaboration, isn't it, and the support network that you've created. And before we started the podcast, we were talking about a couple of things that are interesting there. So I know that you're part of the Joyful Doctor Network. Is that something that you sought out because it's working with a network of people doing similar approaches to supporting healthcare professionals and how does that support guide you or help you?
Yeah, that's lovely. Isn't it they're really a really lovely team. I wasn't near it. It was more organic, I think, than you're suggesting. I met Caroline Walker who is lovely. She's the founder of the Joyful Doctor and started working with her. And then she invited me to work as head of training, which I do. I love that I love training. So that's great for me. And I'm able to help her and the Joyful Doctor. Yes. And within that, there is a team within Joyful Doctor. It's lovely to have a group of people to connect with. We do some professional connections. We do some things outside of work, like during the couch to 5k some of us virtually doing the virtual couch to 5k. So supporting each other in lots of, in lots of ways. So that is really lovely, especially in these, in lockdown when other connections are harder.
I think being able to have connections in that way is helpful. Most of it's virtual and WhatsApp and so on, but it's still really helpful. And I think that something that that helps is that there's an overlap in values between what I do at the Working Well Doctor and what the Joyful Doctor does, which is about helping caring professionals. The Joyful Doctor is mainly doctors, as it says on the tin. Where as I am really I'm passionate about not just being doctors. Cause you know, there are teachers, nurses, genetic counselors, lots of people with caring roles. And I think the themes do overlap, but there's still a great overlap between what I do and the Joyful Doctor does. And so it's really lovely, really lovely to work together and work towards common goals
And supporting caring professionals there is one thing that's, I think people who care for others often find really difficult, maybe more difficult than other people it's really about caring for themselves in your own experience and your own journey. Was there a point where you realized you weren't really doing that and did that contribute to some of the challenges that you had?
Yes. Because I can tell you, I really, really take on accomplished professional like yourself there very nicely crafted question. The short answer is yes, absolutely. So like I said earlier, yeah, so all of that was a big factor for me and not giving myself permission, feeling very guilty about even thinking about looking after myself and there wasn't time and other people needed me to be at home or at work and that, you know, I just couldn't possibly do that. And what happens is you can do that for a while. We can all do it for while we're in the most caring professionals, are highly capable people. And we're very intelligent and we can carry on for a while, but there's these analogies people use about, you know, running on empty or your battery or whatever, but ultimately you have a, you have a capacity and when that runs out, then you don't have any more capacity.
And then you and the people around you suffer, not just at work, but at home. And that really is burnout. I know you worked for WHO don't you. So the definition of burnout is those three parts, you know, emotional distance from your work, poor performance and fatigue that isn't relieved by rest. So the third one where your performance goes down is when everybody notices you're in burnout. But the first two can last for a long time in my humble view, from personal experience and from my work both clinically and now in the wellbeing arena, you have a long time when you're feeling exhausted which isn't relieved by weekends and holidays and weeks off and a long time when you can feel them emotionally distance is a strange word, but I think it, it manifests itself differently for different people. Some people feel cynical.
Some people just feel like whatever this patient is going to say. I just don't want to hear it. That kind of, I don't have the energy to listen to your someone else's problems, but whatever the manifestation for the individual human doctor or caring professional is I think that sits under that umbrella of emotional distance from work. Those two can go on for a while. In my view, before you really have poor performance. And that really is a marker for, you've got to, you've got your function is now impaired and you need to take a break. That's where I reached. And so it takes a while. It takes a while to get back from that third point, hence me being very passionate about helping others avoid it because it is quite a rubbish place to be.
And now you're able to use that experience, although as you say, you wouldn't willingly want anyone to go through that experience, but you've been able to take that experience and move forward and share it with other people. Are there things that you now do to avoid getting back into that sort of cycle? Are there things that you can do in your own self-care that you know are really key to your day to your week?
Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking at you thinking about all your yoga and stuff. So it's interesting. I'm not just going to say it's because you're a yoga teacher, but I do think those basics are important. You know, you think we are physiological creatures, we have basic needs, so we do need, and we talk about it all the time, but it doesn't stop it being true. We do need to get adequate sleep, adequate hydration, adequate nutrition, and moving your body in whichever way is works for you and being outside. I think there's a fair bit of evidence that being outside is good for you. And then if you can actually exercise outside even even better, there is a really interesting article in the, I think it was the social determinants of health. It's a tiny little paragraph in a big document saying they did some studies with pot plants in offices and people who had a pot plant in their office had better performance.
And I think that had better mood as well than those without a pot plant. And you're like, that was your so really small plant think how, you know, I walk out and the outside would be, so now I have lots of pot plants but I tend to kill them. So I have lots of succulents cause they don't die. I guess, to answer your question. That's one example of how I try and build those things in, having pot plants, trying to do the sleep exercise, blah, blah, blah. Mindfulness is important. I know you teach meditation don't you I've done a mindfulness space course. I think that is helpful for most know that they're not all, but many people find that helpful. And then I think there's a lot of things that fall under the loose umbrella of positive psychology, but they involve sort of reframing thinking about the neuroplasticity of your brain, how you can change your habits and the importance of connection.
Social connection is really important for humans. I think that's pretty evident to anyone who's been through lockdown but trying to be creative about maintaining and developing and nurturing those connections despite lockdown. And I think creativity is something I've started to appreciate. There's it's important for your wellbeing and as well as being nice and fun for your wellbeing. I think it really does support problem solving and creativity. Creativity is needed to solve problems and develop in your cognitive tasks, whether that's work in work or out of work. So I think there's some evidence that those things are helpful as well as being good for your wellbeing. They improve your function and maintain your function. Yeah, lots of things. I wrote my, I think my, one of my emails coming up for my email community is going to be on how play is helpful for us, not just for children, but for grownups too.
That is amazing. I love that. And then one of the things I loved about your website is you have a beautiful card on there, which you have designed and beautifully painted yourself. Is art something that you have rediscovered or has it always been there?
Yeah, it's really kind of of you to say, I hadn't really thought of it that well. So I, I I did do that painting. It is mine. It's all original work, but no, I'm not the world's greatest artist by any stretch. I am. I painted that in January, this year, January, 2021 in the UK. So it was really dark. We just basically had Christmas canceled for those who were listening in the UK. I know that Rachel has got an international audience. So for the UK, it was pretty, pretty rubbish let's be honest. And I really wanted to channel some hope so while I was painting this card, I actually had some personal time for once. And I just really focused on that. And I didn't, and I was very organic. I didn't really plan it in a particular way except to go, we'll have the balloon here and whatever sunset.
And then afterwards I can't remember what happened, afterwards I shared it with some people, some people in team Joy actually. And they said, Oh, this is lovely. What do you make it into a card? And I was like, okay. So it really seemed to resonate. And I think the reason it resonated my view is that it was the, when I painted it, I was really in this mind, headspace of trying to channel hope and feel very kind of connected to whatever that means. And somehow that resonates. I'm really glad you like it. And yeah, and I just thought, okay, what can I do to give back? So it's a charity greetings cards, so all profits go to Mind and Duty to Care. And I chose those two charities. Mind is a UK based charity, but you can access it anywhere.
It's got loads of great resources. And aside, I do think it's helpful. And it has a lot of workplace based resources. So I when I used to do clinical occupational health, I would sometimes refer clients to that and then Duty to Care. Like I said, I didn't just want to help health care staff who would just doctors so Duty to Care is an organization that supports all staff in health care, not just doctors. So the proceeds are split between those two. So if anybody would like any they can go to the website and click the link and get them some, get them sent over. And just to spread some hope, really
It's beautiful. I really love it. And I was just really, it's very joyful. And it's also a lovely thing to see in, in amongst everything else you're offering, because I think it, sometimes when we have different ways to show our creativity also shows different parts of us. So that's, that's part of the reason that I really enjoyed seeing it.
Well, thank you. That's really lovely to hear. That's great. Oh yes. Yeah. I do other crazy creative things. None of them with great deal of skill, but a great deal of enthusiasm. So I like crocheting and candle making and just stuff, just, yeah. All the, for the reasons that I just said before playing and creative, there's lots of good science behind it, but ultimately it's fun and it gets you in flow that state, where you can't think of anything else because you're just thinking of this one thing. Cause it's just tricky enough to absorb all your cognitive and physical senses. And that's a great reason in itself to do, to do stuff like that.
Often these activities are also when they're so contrasting and they're with our hands. And instead of being either like lots of people are talking a lot of the day or they're typing a lot of the day, so doing something that takes you away from that, and you can achieve that level of flow in it and that sort of absorption, I think that's the, that is the joy of it. It is the contrast? It's the difference that we're sort of finding in ourselves, which is really nice. And like you say, a lot of it's about permission, isn't it. And giving yourself permission to actually just explore those things and not worry about what the outcome is and just let it happen.
Yeah. I think again, silver lining of lockdown is we've had to be more creative about what we're going to do to, to, to give ourselves those positive experiences within a more confined life or world. So I think that's one opportunity that's been presented by locked down. Isn't it doing more craft, doing baking and all that stuff. So I think that that's great. And I think you're right. I think it is about carving out space time to do those things.
And also as we're talking, we're still in the middle of the pandemic, we're in different countries at the moment. So you and I are in slightly different situations with lock downs. But one of the things that a lot of people have found is that they're spending more time in their homes, whether that's working or whether that's being restricted with the amount of time that they can leave their home for public health reasons. And I know one of the things that you've created as a support sort of Ebook for people who are working from home. So maybe you could just give a bit of reflection as for whether that's, also maybe your own experience of working from home and what you're sharing with other people about how they can manage that.
Interesting. Actually I wrote the book basically from the UK first lockdown here, am I occupational health doctor? I know lot about work done the diploma. And yet when it, when everybody said work from home, I did same as everybody else. I got a laptop and I put it in the kitchen. And then I wondered why I got interrupted by the blender. It was really glary because there's no shades in the kitchen windows. So I was there with my sunglasses on the computer getting a headache from the glare being interrupted with funny posture. And I was like, what am I doing? This is crazy. You need to think a bit more about this. So I thought it all through and I think you do need to think through, and that's really is the Genesis of the book. So yeah, I talk, I talk in the book, it's just, it's a, it's an Ebook.
It's not, you know, very many pages long, but it's got some, some nuggets in there. So if you'd like it it's free, you can grab it from my website WorkingWellDoctor.com just click on the link that says free Ebook. I just really wanted to share these ideas because I think it is important. And so some of the ideas are about boundaries. So, you know, if possible, find a space where you won't be interrupted by the blender or the microwave. And even if you can't do that, maybe find some other solutions. So for example, we're both wearing headphones, easy solution to, to give a bit of a boundary and minimize some interruptions. And also a tip that works is to change your clothing so that if you live with others, you give a non verbal cue to everybody you live with that this is my work clothes I'm now working.
So of course you may also need to tell them, but it means you're, that you're in a different mindset. They're in a different mindset. You get less interrupted for those who live with children. I would normally have another partner in the home. I'd normally prearrange who's looking after the children, then tell the children I'm in my work clothes. This is my work time. Please don't interrupt me. This is who you can interrupt. And then obviously, you know, in a good relationship, we'll flip around and swap roles. So I think that's helpful. And I think it helps to your mindset as well. So I'm wearing my work clothes for you, even though this is not video, I've got my work shoes on. I used to I don't know about you but I used to be tempted to do the old zoom call and your pajama bottoms and your posh top because you know, nobody would know what you're wearing on your waist down.
But that, for me, for me, the mindset doesn't work because, because it, it feels that when you then finish work, you're still wearing your pajamas. So then you're relaxing, going to bedtime feels a bit influenced by work. So I find it helpful, put your work clothes on for work and then take them off. And then the main benefit is when you take them off and put your pajamas on or your jeans and whatever that tells you that you're not off work and it helps you give yourself mental time off from your work. So I think those things help and then rituals before and before and after your work, walking around the block, walking around the kitchen, taking three deep breaths, whatever you can do just to, again, demark your work time and your home time, even though you're in one in, in your home.
And then yeah, avoiding the slumping on the sofa with your laptop, just simple stuff about sitting comfortably sitting properly. I'm sure as a Public Health doctor I don't need to tell you this, but, you know, avoiding what might be a short-term muscular...Rachel is now sitting up... Short-Term muscular ache if you're just on your laptop for an hour a day, but if you're doing it weeks and months on end for days and days, then it kind of become quite problematic and it's not rocket science. You just need to try and get yourself a desk, try and get yourself a separate screen and keyboard, try and think about right angles, hips, knees, ankles, everything, except your wrist needs to be, try and be at a right angle and then try and have those wrists neutral rather than cocked up or cocked down over a wonky keyboard.
And again, over time, I think that really helps just your general wellbeing and your focus. You're not being distracted by aches. And I think the other thing that helps we talked about connection as well. So I think that's important to do for work and then breaks. I don't know about you but people, I think sometimes feel guilty about working from home and they need to prove they're working. If they're working for a boss, they're not working for themselves, they feel they have to send that email at midnight to prove how hard they're working. And I think that's really detrimental as well, to. So you need to have the trust with your team. That's helpful if you knew them in real life before it's harder I think if you started a new job and you've ever only ever worked virtually, but there are ways to connect, to have walk and talk meetings, to send each other a card, to have some informal zoom drinks or whatever.
There are ways to have sort of develop and permit fun and social connections. My most recent email, I did a, there's not an ebook actually, but it was in my most recent email about randomized coffee trials, where they, they developed a way of getting people to connect at work by permitting them and actually asking them to have coffee with each other on work time for half an hour. And they're randomly allocated a coffee partner. It could be done virtually or in real life. And you could talk about anything. You didn't have to talk about work at all. And the interesting thing is that people did inevitably talk a bit about work. So actually it sparked ideas that helped innovation within the company. And when they didn't talk about work, they were building that social connections, building the glue that helped the teams together, and that helps morale and teamwork.
And then it prevented some other problems like organizational silos, forming, which is this phrase for when different teams within a company don't communicate because they might be competing for resources or they might, for lots of reasons. They feel that it's not in their interest to share. And that's really detrimental for the overall team. And that happens in healthcare teams as well. So I think all these all strategies can either prevent problems, arising or promote a better team unity. And that's very important when you work from home, because again, working home is another barrier to connection. So again, trying to be creative to overcome those barriers. So some of the stuff in the book and there's stuff in my email as well, if you, if you want to get the email yeah, you can join from my website as well. The WorkingWellDoctor.com.
Thank you. We'll make sure we put all the links underneath so people can look in and have a look at the Ebook. And I think it's just so important as we're moving into a different period of time and it's difficult, the uncertainty is there. So we don't know how long we're going to be in those situations. Some people, it will mean a big shift in the way that they work. So taking time to just reflect and look at what you're doing and put in place, some simple measures like you're suggesting, I think is just so crucial to maintaining our workplace wellbeing, even if the workplace is now in, in the home.
And I think for me, I've worked at, I've worked remotely for a long time, but one of the things I really find so important is connection. And you've mentioned it a few times, that connection both to ourselves and giving ourselves that time to think about what's going on in our own minds, our own bodies, and then the connection with other people.
It's obviously so crucial to feeling like you are contributing to something particularly in a work place. And then in a team and as well as working for yourself at the moment and working in the teams that you do. I know there's something we talked about right at the beginning was around role models and connecting with people who can inspire you. And really, through this podcast, what I'm really hoping is that people can listen and they get a little bit of inspiration and a little bit of a spark to follow their dreams, to follow different ideas and to be confident with themselves. So were there people in your life that you were able to identify as a role model and who are those people maybe, and what have you learned from finding maybe women, maybe men who have been a role model for you?
That's really interesting, isn't it? So I think I was thinking about this question. I think the way I, I think there's been a few role models. I think the way you find them, it's really, as you were saying, it's really with your intuition, there's nothing that you say this person's name or their job title is going to make them into a good role model for you. I think it's about noticing what your values are like you were saying and reflecting. And like I said, hopefully conversations like this will spark ideas and, and, and help people reflect and think about their path. So I think if you have done that process, then you can more easily spot somebody in your world who resonates with, with those feelings and then you go, Oh, okay, fine. Then you sort of get excited and, and try and sort of learn and ask and, and see what they're up to.
And for me, yeah, it's mainly, it's mainly been women who are parents, which was on reason why I wanted to share these ideas with other parents, they are women and men, but I am a woman. So, you know, so I think that is helpful. It doesn't always have to be doctors again, I think it's important for me that it's more about supporting and connecting with caring professionals more broadly. Yeah. And I think there are some people in the broader world who, who are role models, people who maybe write books and so on. But I think it's helpful to have a mixture of people who, who you might sort of see in the broader world and then a few people, you know, personally I think your role models will change as your needs change as well. You know, so you can have a role model when you're at medical school, who's just like amazing junior doctor and you want to be them and that's, that's great. And then later on, you might have a role model. Who's this professional parent who is juggling and is managing to manage themselves and all the caring roles. So yeah. So I think your role model shift and change don't they.
Yeah, definitely. And do you think that's just made me think about how also our passions change? So when you look back over your career and the path that you've taken, can you see any themes that have run through it and can you see a big difference between what you thought maybe you would be doing after you finished university?
Yeah, that's really interesting. Actually, I was thinking about this recently. Cause part of the coaching I do is sometimes to get coachees to do a river, their river of life. So this is draw a river and this is your life. And you mark off on your life represented by the river, the significant events, positive and negative. And actually if you do that, it can be really powerful way of getting that holistic overview. So I was thinking about this recently, I've done one for myself as well. But actually, yes, I've always loved teaching. Always. I used to teach children's dance. I used to do children's ballet. When I was myself, a young teenager, I was a special needs support teacher in before going to medical school, I've taught all the way through medical school and junior doctor. I went to Mayo clinic and taught a lot there. I've done pediatric support and training. So I've always taught. And then here I am teaching and I've loved the part of medicine where you listen and hear people's stories and yeah, and that's a large part of coaching. So actually a large part of what I do now has always been there.
Oh, that's a beautiful way to come to the conclusion of our podcast. I really love that whole idea of the river of life. And it's a great exercise. I've done something similar to that before. And it is really great to be able to see the themes and the different things that are coming along and pulling them together and feeling that you're going in the right direction and that you're following what you is authentic for you. So that's really lovely to hear that just before we go, where can people find out more? I know we've mentioned about your website, but what's the best way to get in contact with you if people want to connect? Yeah.
So the website is probably the simplest WorkingWellDoctor.com uh all the connections are through there, but you can also email me direct firstname.lastname@example.org. They're the two simplest ways. And if you'd like the card, you can click on the website or the free ebook or to join the email list they are all available through my website. Just click on the links. And I'm also on Instagram @working underscore well underscore doctor and on LinkedIn, I have a Facebook group for my thrive well community. So if you'd like to join, then you're welcome to just connect with me through the website or my email. And then I can hook you up with that. Sort of members thrive well group.
Brilliant. Thank you. And we will definitely put all these links below. So it's been a real pleasure chatting to you. I could chat to you for a lot, lot longer. I've got so many questions, but one of the reasons that I wanted to do this podcast is really so that we can be the most authentic version of ourselves. And as it's called Authentic, Tea I would love to know who you would like to have your most authentic cup of tea with
So lots of different people, no pressure, but I think cause it's a kind of a really broad question. I think I'm going to go for. So there's lots of people. You can have an authentic cup of tea with, which is lovely in real life. Or even here, I've got my tea while I'm talking to you, which is lovely. But I'm going to choose somebody who I might not get to have a real life cup of tea with. Maybe I will. And that's Michelle Obama. I really find her inspirational. I love her podcast and her book. And I think she strikes, obviously I've never met her in real life, but she strikes me as somebody who has managed to maintain her authenticity, despite many challenges. And she represents somebody who, aside from being, you know, the first lady or ex first lady, as a black woman, there's inevitably going to be challenges for her. And she has managed to meet or manage those. And yet really seems to maintain her authenticity. So yeah. Talk about role models. I think she's one of my role models that would be really, I'd love to have a chat to her.
I will say we'd love to have a chat with her. Maybe, maybe one day who knows. Who knows where these circles take us.
Oh yes. Who knows.
Let's make it happen.
So yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for being part of the podcast today. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Thank you, Rachel. I really enjoyed this.
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